Why standing seam (traditional) is the best roofing ever

Video showing all seam details: https://youtu.be/ImtSdwAk8Po

Why standing seam is the best roofing ever:

There is nothing to hide.

The base pan is in view: and all penetrations are picked up, at all four corners and seamed through twice over.

All pans are independent and repairable.

Any defects in the seam can be inspected with a single 180 degree turn.

Real seamers don't hide behind laps, caps, goop, and solder.

http://youtu.be/ImtSdwAk8Po

:blush:

Kurtis, Heck of a job, but remember that at one time you didn't do it like that either. Not all of us want to take that much time to hit those details and though I know you well enough to know that you are not bragging, It is almost coming across like you are about to dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back.

John, You are right, I have done the industry standard 10' flat sheet built-ins in the past. When I started doing cornices this was the best approach I could find based on the research and existing precedents. I got into the trades because I hired a copper guy to do built-ins on a cornice on my own house that I restored over a summer. I will never forget watching him hack in my gutter corners in the field.

I knew from my research on the cornice work; (I read William Nuerbaker's book and practiced a few patterns before ever even working on the carpentry) That proper sheet metal work is drafted in the flat and plotted/patterened before cutting. When I asked him why he didn't draft out the corners first and seam them: he looked at me like I was nuts and said there was no way to do it. I also knew coming from a family of tin-knockers and sheet metal fabricators 3 generations deep that there was a rich tradition of careful study and development of patterns and templates for everything. Never mind the evidence of the seamed standing seam roof I took out and deconstructed to figure out how they got the seam to run up the wall...

I let the guy finish the gutters but passed on the standing seam roof, because he suggested cutting the seam ends at the wall and laying them down for a good sweat, then putting a big counter cap on it.

My search continued. My ancestors were dead and gone so I had nobody to ask.

I started doing slate roofing, decorative sheet metal work: vessels and finials, and yes, soldered gutters, with single lock seams using all of the research and guidance I was able to gain up to that point.

In my preservation career, that was all I did, slate roofs with simple folk-flashing details (tinner's wings) and notches / gore pieces soldered in at the top of crickets / etc. Isolated pieces.

I have never soldered details on a standing seam roof.

In fact, the first 7 years of my preservation career: I was asked many times to do standing seam roofs and I told them all the same thing: I only know how to make a straight seam: if you have a straight gable let's do it, otherwise avoid it unless you can find someone who knows how to pattern and fold all the details.

I passed on the jobs and watch them hire people who would hack in "essence of standing seam" and pin good copper together on the details. People gave their lungs and backs to mine that stuff. I don't like to see it wasted. Put rubber on if you are not going to respect the culture and heritage and do it right.

The only standing seam roofs Patina (my old company based in KY) did were due to a very special employee who now works for a very elite group in Hunstville, AL. He was the only person I met up to that point who actually had experience with the proper training to perform standing seam respecting the tradition, culture and heritage. All corners penetrated, everything double locked, no excuses. It was then, and only then we performed some really nice octagonal standing seams on a few slate projects.

With soldered built-ins, we tried to do our absolute best, following what we know about chemistry, metalurgy, and precedents put out by other tradespeople. Again I go to the old books first, then look for precedents in the built world to prove the old knowledge is actually holding up.

I see very few examples of 10' soldered work that is older than 1980. This is just based on the inspections I have conducted. Mostly 10-15 year old assemblies that are either ripped up at the bullnose drip like a sardine can, or busting open at the seams.

I think there is a place for cheap roofing: asphalt 3-tab, 5v, all that stuff has it's place. It's not like we should have only top-notch and nothing else. But if you are doing sanding seam: for preservation purposes, to match an american tin/terne look: it shouldn't be soldered unless it actually IS tin/terne. There is precedent for that: if you have terne: solder the heck out of it.. paint it, back prime, and there ya go..

I am on a mission.. Similar to joe's book, we will have standards and have this information codified so the general public and architects will know what to look for with a properly made standing seam.

everywhere else in the world, where the codes are enforced on this at the time of construction: they don't allow it. You would lose your license or guild standing.

We get away with it here because there's no recourse in 30, 40, 50 years.. the work should last longer than that though. and we owe it to the miners to respect the material, and honor the traditions and precedents if we are going to render it into roofing.

That said: the post isn't even about me... Or the work: this is more to showcase what is possible. This is not special or custom, they do this work every day like this in other parts of the world. After fighting this road to get here and running into walls with people in the industry who say they can do it but can't, I have to say yeah I am damn proud to be advancing the discussion and hopefully inspiring people to think different about the way they cut their metal roofs.

It is the best roofing for those reasons I stated. After learning and going through the whole process of creating something like this it makes you feel a type of way. Knowing that I can see everything : any crack, any defect is on the surface or right behind a 180 degree turn. Not tooting my horn I'm just getting started in this field: I'm just excited to pull it off and honored to have a great client that regicnizes the value in it as well.

That's something to be proud of be sure. I'd love to be able to do that, but finding the customer base around here to pay for it would be difficult.

Here's the thing with that CLVR: seamed work can be just as fast as any other copperwork. Of course you have to have a crew that is highly educated and trained in the methods but once you have that: it is in fact faster than soldered work. There are preservation jobs every day specing permanent roofing with the budget to cover this kind of work. Problem is architects, property managers, and boards that make the decisions on these projects do not know where to go for standards. They usually rely on smnca or copper.org standards: which are incomplete and mostly useless when it comes to traditional standing seam.

The problem is growing roofers that are steeped in: geometry, pattern drafting, classical architecture training, and of course the time behind a hammer and anvil to get experience. They school for 7 years for journeyman everywhere else. I think it's laughable that the greatest country in the world can't keep up. We need trades education so bad in this country too. If every young person blindly goes to college only to end up working at kinkos because they were sold a bag of goods that a degree would get them somewhere.

The money, and the building stock in need of permanent roofing is out there: we just have to elevate the standards and the training

First off, man Kurtis!!! You are on fire!!!

John, i think he is actually very humble. Kurtis has found a historic renovation market that is on the rise. The first step to this kind of growth is being humble enough to face that there is a better way. Then it takes lots of education, work and sacrifice to make it happen.

Funny how we catch all the crap though. The entire roofing industry is not just in the dark and unaware but actually mounts a fight when they come across real roofing. I see it like this... Production roofing makes all the money. We all respect that. Infact i wish so bad i could make the money yall make. But theres still a place for proper roofing.

How are we a problem to yall? I have literally never seen a craftsman pushing lies on consumers on production homes, selling them away from production roofers. Yall get 99.9% of the market, probably more. But my biggest problem is production roofers infiltrating the fine home market with cheap temporary products that are dishonest.

I think its embarrassing that production roofers for the most part dont respect or even show interest in traditional permanent roofing. I think it exposes them. Business is about numbers and based on that, yall are by far in the lead. People like kurtis and myself dont look at this as a numbers game. We love roofing, its our life. Kurtis came down here and he was up all night reading, sketching and making patterns. Then he was up first thing getting prepared. All day long he was in the zone and just exuded this energy that he loved what he did. On the weekends he was experimenting and doing the same as above.

We dont have any industry support whatsoever. No products that advertise for us, none we can get "certified" with so we are the only choice, no multi million dollar advertising campaigns inserting preconceived notions in peoples heads, no bandwagons we can jump on, etc. We are on our own out here with everything stacked up against us.

We have chosen the narrow path in roofing and pride is what we are left with rather than profit. Not complaining, just pointing out that we deserve respect.

I made more money than i could count in production roofing. Ill never forget the day someone put a piece of slate in my hands. It changed my life forever. Unfortunately since then, i have nothing in common with roofers. I wish so bad we had some sort of fellowship. I come here to share. When i was yall i always had an interest in traditional roofing.

Kurtis is eager to teach his trade. So am i. He goes above and beyond giving his valuable time and hard earned wisdom to anyone curious. I will do the same.

I agree that there is a place for production roofing just as there is a place for traditional roofing. I am friends with local contractors. I pass them the production work and they pass me the ones they are not qualified for. Thats a big step and knowing the difference takes wisdom and humility. I believe we can coexist if the respect is there.

Clvr, youd be surprised how many people ARE interested in this type of work, even amongst the masses. Most of the time though the option is not even known to the consumer.

Existing only in the present one could easily say that cheap, temporary roofing will be the only way forever. But study history and realize that this is a trend and these trends come and go. One thing for sure is that this current temporary culture will eventually destroy itself. It has to. What will rise from the rubble is real, authentic, true, etc.

Its important not to go pushing the truth on people but equally important to be able to provide it when requested.

Someday, we will have a group that actually juries to get on that list: unlike SRCA, NSA.

Someday awards in permanent roofing will be based on the actual craftsmanship that goes into the job rather than flashy photos.

For the sake of the good name of slate, tile, hardwood shingles, and standing seam: us who respect the tradition will not let fakers muck up the good name of these products.

For the sake of the buildings: structures important enough to warrant permanent roofing: historic structures, should be respected

For the sake of those who give their backs and lungs to harvest these materials

And lastly, for ourselves; if you are doing permanent roofing and not respecting the tradition: you know it in your heart. With every seam cap, piece of peel n stick, goop, and solution other than wits and raw material, you know it.

If you've ever torn out a 100 year old roof that was mint: no underlay, deck as solid as the day it was put on: you would understand.

Brandon and I have both been moved by the things we behold in old craftsmanship and set out on a path to revive it here in the states (and Caribbean).

The production roofing industry means nothing to me... It would be like taking a seed saver who had lived off the land their whole life to the garden section at home depot... they would just laugh at you.

The stuff i have learned, also is the basis for why we have the products we do now... There is an evolution for everything and we still use terms like headlap even on asphalt: that is a slating term. Everything in roofing came from something else: The big rib snap lock standing seam was inspired by the earlier examples, no doubt.

There are a lot of tin knockers, slaters, thatchers, shinglers, and steeplejacks that came before use. If I am called to re-create or restore their work: I want to be sure I'm doing it right and respect the tradition they worked in.

This is a little mind-warping for me.

A few years ago this roofers' site was just booming with almost ridiculous energy from people all across the board. We had a thousand posts on a thread about a hypothetical airplane taking off from a treadmill. We had people sharing un-roofing related information about everything from video games to spicy food. We had hot men, slaters, tilers, "production" people, people doing roofing on the side, copper men, wood men, pitch men, you name it. We had them all here and they were all telling us their innermost secrets. We had Tom Hay turning the world upside down or right-side up with his insights on foam and polyurea. We even had the inimitable Mike Hicks (before he took a close look at those two products) making a literary joke to the inimitable Tom Hay about polyurea being a fancy name that translated to "blended horse-piss."

It was good. And it's still good. bdub and Pattern X bring good energy; I'm happy with it. It illustrates William Blake's theory about poetic genius. Where one person leaves off, another has already begun. We are linked together in a universal sum, an interlocking network of consciousness. Nobody gets to claim credit for knowing it all, conceiving of it all, or owning it all. Too bad for Monsanto, which hasn't accepted this line of reasoning yet.

Back then, if you went to the NRCA chatroom, you got the most deadly boring posters you could ever hope to find. Nothing going, no offense to the NRCA which has helped the industry keep within sight of changes imposed by a litigious culture.

But back up a second.

Doing a Google search on copper stuff, you find the general consensus is that a good, properly-installed copper roof is going to last seventy-five years.

Oldschool and I (and he is a bit younger than I although who is counting) are not far off from that seventy-five years, and we both share at least one thing in common, a love for the trade, and another, a belief that quality has a legitimate right to stand up against "economics." So ask him or ask me. Is seventy-five years permanent? Keep in mind: Oldschool and I were young children about a blink of an eye ago. We love it and we're not complaining, but be really careful when you through a word around like "permanent."

I've gotten my tit in a wringer here over copper. I dared to say that if copper costs 30 cents for a step shingle (material only) and gsm costs 10 cts. for a step shingle (material only) and you can get gsm step shingles day in and day out for 50cts., it is highway robbery to charge $4.00 for a copper one. They even bend easier. What's the deal?

Don't get me wrong. I love integrity. I love craftsmanship. I love people who put righteousness before profit. But what, exactly, is "real," and what, exactly, is "permanent?" I do know what respect is, and I accord it in advance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abMsu4BdjB8

This guy is a nut, but he is a beautiful nut.

So here's my deal: if you can't spend the forty minutes to get to the bottom of his little video, then nothing is permanent. Commodity is everywhere. Heart and soul is always hiding where you least expect it.

Branden and Kurtis, You guys know me and you also know I was not criticizing Kurt, but just pointing out that is was very possible that he was coming across as a bit critical of everyone that does not do roofing the way he does. (now) This despite the fact that I am sure that both he and you Branden once did things exactly the way that most of us do. Time heals, time teaches, and time changes..everything! I highly respect both of your work, your integrity and your passion for the craft. Keep on keeping on and know that we are watching and doing the best we can with what we have, and at the same time, trying to improve how we do things and watching technology raise "all the boats in the harbor"

You guys aren't old enough to remember the car production of the 50's and 60's. Good old "Detroit Iron", and most of it was junk in 3 years or 50,000 miles. Modern methods and closer tolerances have improved vehicles by a factor of 500% in longevity and safety and value in the last 40 years. I am sure that the same can happen to roofing, but it will be a combination of a lot of different things. You guys will be one of those things. I know that patience is hard to come by, but hang in there and believe. it will happen. John crookston

Branden and Kurtis I admire your efforts. Don't be offended by the pedantic. I believe it's well intentioned . Your desire to raise the bar is to be applauded. B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

John, I gave myself an education before I ever touched copperwork. Maybe that is the edge that sets me apart from most; I took a year studying the history of metalwork, pattern drafting, made models of obtuse gutter miters, made finials in my shop, and poured over volumes of books I accessed while I still had access to the architectural resource library at school. I new that there was a right and wrong way to do standing seam from an old book I downloaded in 2005: right around the same time I started apprenticing for a guy who was known for doing (old school) standing seam.

That book Was in a foreign language and it didn't have the full scale patterns like the new German textbooks do: but it had illustrations of the folding sequences. I saw what the guy I was apprenticing for was doing to the copper, and I recognized it as uninformed, guesswork, built Off someone else's uninformed guesswork. I have never done that in my career. I look for precedents and study before Doing anything.

So You can say "I'm sure You guys did work like that before" but you would be wrong. I came into this game stronger than most just based on education. Experience Is for nothing: if you have 20 years doing busted uninformed work that's not 20 years of experience its 20 years if guessing and head scratching.

This is for those Out there who are Told to do garbage work Or Are learning from someone who is in no position to teach: hit the books! The information is out there, and we are gonna make it more pervasive too so young metal men will know the difference between real work: and stuff just faking the look from the ground

Also I have never been one to hoard knowledge to get an edge, I've even helped competitors on this stuff because I care about the material and the building more than a paycheck.

I'm not here to down anyone: I'm not calling them Neanderthals like the slate bible. I have too much respect for the workers to do that. Most of the work commissioned on historic roofing is coming from the top down not by the workers themselves so it's wrong to attack them for doing their job.

I do want the standards to Change though. We are doing demos At the srca and eventually other conferences to spread this knowledge so someday every historic roof out in will have a proper upstand, or be laughed out of the community... Joes book Was harsh on the trade but it did make a point. Quit messing up slate Roofs! I can't help but feel the same way about standing seam. It is my culture and heritage

Egg: everyone is on the FB roofing community now

Another thing: I don't even think copper is the end-all be all for permanent roofing. I push painted steel as the best value, copper as purely aesthetic upgrade to steel. The labor is the same to render them Properly.