Why standing seam (traditional) is the best roofing ever

The integrity of the worker has nothing to do with the cost of the material. I think the guy that is using chalklines to install three tab has more integrity than a guy installing copper flat lock with no underlayment. I don't use either one, so I have no dog in this fight.

But the guy installing the comp is likely doing it to meet his personal standards. Unless the roof can be viewed from above at a side angle, it is likely nobody will ever know the effort he took to keep things perfectly straight. The guy installing the copper with no underlayment is doing it for his ego. The cost of the underlayment would be such a small percentage of the total cost that it would not be a factor. Sure they did it that way years ago, but do they do it today in markets (like Europe) where traditional roofing is the norm or do they adopt improvement as it is developed?

Kurtis: You install steel with the same details as copper? I'm imagining that would be a bit harder to learn on. This past winter I realized that I would rather spend my spare time working with metal than wood. Do you have recommended reading(downloadable book?) for me to ignore...*cough* attempt to read during this next winter.

I'm pretty sure I DON'T have the patience for much of this work, but I do find it interesting.

Woody: Natty said on here not too long ago "I'm the only person who realizes just how good of a roofer I am" --- This was regarding his comp installs in "hail country." I completely believe him too. It is about getting the most out of the material your working with. This copper work is amazing, and something to be respected for sure. But there is nothing wrong with giving your customer base what they demand at a good "value"

Nuerbakers books are the best place to start

Yeah Clvr:

I've done two traditional american "tin" roofs with modern steel, and have one coming up this summer.

The only big difference with steel vs copper is, you have to anneal more if you are going to open up a pleat you've already put in the material.

On those inside corners there is almost always a pleat or "dog ear"

Some american tinners might be familiar with this from doing the pan-ends of batten cap roofs, or putting in "bread pan" folds instead of locking strips on their capped standing seam roofs.

We are using the same approach: just carrying that "upstand" all the way through to the next seam.

You can do it with almost any metal that will "seam". Aluminum is a no-go.

I'm using 20" and 24" rezibond coils and having great results.

There are very few books out on the process, and details, and folding sequences, which is really vital to put it all together on the roof...

I spend a lot of time modeling in paper, on the seam ends and terminations.

There is a german textbook I got from a copper craft company in Canada: Steetz is the name if you google them, they are very helpful and will order just about anything we don't have access to here in the states.

The text is in german, but it has full-scale patterns you can trace out of the book and use to study.

I will have guides and full-scale patterns and videos on my website very soon: right now all that material is scattered between Facebook, my portfolio site, and old website.

Also doing a training session at the SRCA conference in PENN this fall.

If you can make it out to that, you could get quite a primer in a day.

on the value question:

I'm all for cheap roofing. I will install 3 tabs, rubber,

even hydro-stop coatings on the right circumstance.

I am usually first to recommend painting and maintenance before replacement.

Old worn copper can be coated, same with tin.

If it's beyond the point of coating or the client is ready to start from scratch: I don't see any value in soldered (copper work) for the reasons I stated before. I charge less for proper work than most outfits charge to say they are doing historical work, when really they are just slapping copper together with solder.

Let's say a client is paying $100 per linear foot of cornice work (typical midwest, 3 story victorian, with "copper" built-ins). This job would cost them the same, my approach (in line with the rest of the world) or the standard 10' sheets lapped, rivet, solder. So if the project budget is not affected by the change, and only the education and experience of the installer must be up to par. It doesn't cost any more, and it actually is a lot more teachable than soldering if you have your fundamentals down.

There is no long-term value in improperly done metalwork, it just becomes a monolith once you solder together. Once you solder together you have really just created one piece... a nice backing for hydropstop or coating in 20-30 years when there is damage, or a seam finally gives way. Or you could always try to grind brite, clean, sweat in patches, and we've all tried that and know how problematic it is...

The true value is in charging the same as the rest of the market, but giving the customer something that is truly permanent, even in the event of a repair.

Earlier in the thread I quoted Natty as saying "I'm on the only roofer who know's how good I really am" I'm sorry, but I think it was seen-it-all. Apologies to both of you, I know your both in the Plains and I like both your attitudes.

Kurt: The conference sounds interesting, but I'm sure I'd feel like a newb! That's okay though, I swallow my pride to learn. If this summer goes well I'd consider coming to Penn, I've wanted to anyways.

Your teaching a class all day? Is there a cost? I didn't see any info on SRCA's website.