They are hiring roofers

Damn! Why do I always end up arguing with Lefty? B)

I agree with all points here. A man won't starve at those sub prices as long as he keeps the overhead down and as Lefty stated, deliver 50 sq's. per week, off/ on.

My argument is this: 1) $5000 / yr. overhead is not enough. Not running two trucks, min. That's bad Lefty. Re-calculate.

2) 2 guys, even 3 are not going to do a roof per day, without cherry picking the jobs. Over pick, and just like apples, you run out of fruit

3) To be legal and have a sustainable model, i.e. trucks and equipment, well good luck. I made money being relatively underpaid, because I bought my stuff when I was not underpaid.

Sorry Mike/ Lefty. Been there and done it. This model will work for a couple of guys pounding out some squares. I cannot see building a business based on fulfilling legal requirements w/ employees, having "professional tools" and bad pricing.

A recipe for failure. Always has been always will be.

There is a reason Proctor and Gamble has been here for over a century.....It sells paper towels for more than they cost to produce, market and distribute, not less. :)

Theez cumpani iz de best Homz! My hole family works for dem Man! HAHAHA That's Cheap! We got $40 off $40.on in 2004 subbing! Still barely made it doing it legit!

There are no employees. You can not do the job in 1 day, but there are a lot of places to sub that you do not have to finish the job in 1 day. They are not trying to build a buisness. They are just 2 guys that are going to live a real good life making real good money.

2 guys that are partners. They finish the job split the money. The only expense is liability insurance. Some gas. An accountant once a year. Some other little expenses. Phone and Truck are also your personel phone and truck.

The inital cost of tools. My personal tools last forever. Tools and trucks do not last as long with employees. But you do not have employees.

AMEN Twill

Stop and think about this for a second guys. The only one really making any money in this deal is the owner that is paying the "subs" to do the work. They are selling the whole thing for about $250 a square. the salesman gets 10% the roofer gets 20% and they have about 38 % in materials. They are pulling in about $80.00 per square for doing nothing.

Working on a crew, you can make some money to help someone with the bills.

Sub-contracting residential work, you can make a living.

Owning a successful roofing business, you can make a profit!

My Dad and I felted & nailed out a 20sq roof for a friend. We charged somewhere around $40-50 per square. He paid cash. We split it and for a brief moment considered firing everybody and cancelling our work comp and advertising. Then realized he is 60 and won't want to do that every day!

There are some good points in this thread.

It's a lot of work to do 5 days per week, even for 2 young men clover. Did you not even tear-off........clean-up?

Good luck getting that $2250 every week for 50 weeks ($111,000 gross, approx) 40 weeks about $90k gross. AFTER they spend whatever is left from their overhead on trucks, equipment, tools and gear, the next thing the young men will do with what is left, is start hiring and start a business.

This model is rarely, very rarely sustainable.

Back to original requirements: Do a complete roof per day. Carry work comp. Have PROFESSIONAL Tools. Have a dump truck. And don't forget, now that you've hired help to do that roof in one day, $5 of that per sq price, MINIMUM, has just gone to Work comp and payroll burdens.

Back in the late 80's @ $50/60 Plus per sq. I could afford to buy ladders, tools, trucks , equipment. Can Todays "subs" afford any of the necessary things @ $50/60? Simply, it's the numbers.

I had a couple of partners back in the early years when I sub-contracted but that was before I realized that $1,000 divided by 2 was $500 but $1,000 minus 3 roofers at $100 a day was $700. Not to mention it's only half the work with 4 people doing it rather than just 2 doing it. ;)

twill59 Said: Sorry Mike/ Lefty. Been there and done it. This model will work for a couple of guys pounding out some squares. I cannot see building a business based on fulfilling legal requirements w/ employees, having professional tools and bad pricing.

A recipe for failure. Always has been always will be.

There is a reason Proctor and Gamble has been here for over a century.....It sells paper towels for more than they cost to produce, market and distribute, not less. :)

Agreed completely. I failed at it. I didn't want that anymore for myself.

But it can work, and good work can be done that way.

But P&G also works hard every day to make sure they produce those paper towels for less money than their competition, and they make a better product. That's the key to any business. Just being cheap won't last. Just being the best is really hard if you aren't competitive on price. Deliver SUPERIOR quality at a competitive price.... long term SUCCESS!!!

That's what I strive for today. It's so much more comfortable than my old way. I just remember what I did and what I made back in the day, and it kinda felt like I was getting picked on. Thought I'd step up and defend the model I usually pick apart.

I guess my whole point was that crappy work doesn't come from any specific model or any specific price structure. It's a personal decision.

:)

twill59 Said: Its a lot of work to do 5 days per week, even for 2 young men clover. Did you not even tear-off........clean-up?

We cleaned up our mess. It was a new house, 2 straight sides, basically next door. I'm definitely in the camp that says this craigslist article isn't for businesses.

And $10/sq more for steep!! That's crazy.

Mike H said: "I guess my whole point was that crappy work doesn't come from any specific model or any specific price structure. It's a personal decision."

I agreed with just about everything you said until I got to the last line and I agree with the personal decision part but the problem is that when the company just sub-contracts all the work out at very low pay, the quality control is shifted to the sub-contractor who at those low prices, has or at least feels like he has to do the work quickly to make any decent money. This leads to an inclination to "slap" on roofs rather than "install" them properly. This may not be an issue with commercial work but it certainly is with residential shingle work. I know because I repair their crappy installs every day. In the midst of these repairs, when I fully see what they did, sometimes I laugh out loud. Other times I curse out loud. :dry:

I started in a down cycle with a brother as a partner. We were licensed. No insurance to start with. Couldn't afford it. Beat-run Chev pickup with no back window. One flimsy extension ladder from Montgomery Wards. Twenty or thirty roof brackets and some 2X8 planks. One worm-drive skill saw and some hand tools. Going rate for comp was $5/sq. labor. Shakes were $10. Worked 350 days that year. Didn't make squat but stayed alive and after two more years we were starting to get a little wing speed. Couldn't get the cushy jobs because the equipment looked too flakey. We developed a reputation for clean, quality installations and things picked up again. Brother left and I started hiring. Beat me to death with employee costs and the stupid piecework model.

It's all different now, of course. Except for the history of one to sixteen employees depending on a variety of circumstances and mindsets I'm a confirmed artisan contractor running a crew of zero to four or five and walking away with a sense of calm and accomplishment each day. I'm nearing the end of the line though, so small is beautiful to me.

Been in two ugly lawsuits, approximately one per each twenty years. From those two experiences of my own, other twisted near-misses of my own, vicarious experiences of others I have known, and reliable information from still others I do not know personally, my fear of being a sub for a larger entity is clear. Both times I was sued the problems arose over disagreements between clients and general contractors that I had no knowledge of until it was too late to affect the outcome. All sorts of people were erroneously accused and dragged into the fracas. Some of them were not even involved in the projects. Insupportable claims were made blithely by attorneys and others who didn't care one iota for truth, only prospective profit.

So you enter into a sub agreement with a master provider of jobs and he gets sued. You have insurance so your carrier becomes a deep pocket. You have to prove you didn't work on the job(s) in question. Oh, no, they say, your invoices don't tell the whole story. The other guys didn't keep their insurance in force. They are gone. You are still here. Hold onto your hats, kids. Helluva ride. Maybe your provider will treat you equitably. Maybe he won't. You find out who your friends are in a hurry.

I did three jobs for Sears. That was enough. Unbelievable stuff I had to deal with. I'm far, far better off controlling my own destiny.

But I will never forget something an old man told me way back in the beginning. He said, "Everybody has to start somewhere." Now that has a ring to it and I will venture to say that it always will. When they make it impossible to start with anything less than a golden hatchet and a titanium extension ladder we'll know the game has finally been rigged.

I re-did a valley on one today. The roof had 6 valleys. Four of them were laced/weaved and 2 were closed cut/california cut but they ran a shingle up the valley before installing the last/top side and left the bottom part of that shingle exposed. This was done so they didn't have to cut the valley out.

When I tore the valley out, one side was a newer addition and the other side had two layers on the top half and only one layer on the bottom half. The valley was leaking in two different places due to the bulkiness of all the layers plus that added shingle.

I started looking around and spotted dozens of nail pops poking through the shingles. The old rectangular furnace vent had a 750 vent installed over top of it and screwed in due to the cap being rusted off, rather than replace the whole thing. All of the shingles were installed over top of the base flashing including the ones at the bottom. Nothing keeping the water out but the black tar they smeared around it.

There were two plumbing pipes. One had a new flashing on it with all the shingles installed over top of the flashing on the left side but all of them underneath it on the right side and then sealed down the side of the flashing. The other had an old antenna bracket on it ( no antenna just the bracket) that they didn't want to slow down and take off so they didn't even install a pipe flashing on that one. Just black tar around it.

They installed a 4 inch neoprene plumbing pipe flashing around the gas hot water heater exhaust that should of had a type B gas vent base flashing and storm collar on it. The heat had just about cooked it already.They imbedded the gun nails into the shingles and as I tore out the valley they pulled right off with ease. The roof was crooked as a politician and just 3 years old.

I told all of this to the owner and he said " Yeah, the company I hired "subbed" the job out to this guy I didn't like and I almost ran him off the job twice, I wish I had now."

I'm going to guess that Lefty is playing Devils Advocate here. I mean really, You're going to tearoff and reroof 10 square each and every day for 52 weeks in the year. The contractor is going to keep you lined up with an uninterupted supply of jobs. Pay you promptly and not string you along for weeks. The weather is going to be perfect with no rain or snow, Your body will stand up to the punishment. Not gonna happen man, you know it. You're going to get a 1099 which is going to cost you a third of your income. You're going to carry GL and Work Comp. Your office/truck/dump trailer needs maintainence, insurance, gas. Your phone is gong to cost you a good $2 a day. Clothing, shoes, tools are going to wear out. Knife blades, saw blades. You're going to install a sheet of plywood for $12 a sheet. :laugh: All of the materials you need are going to be there when you need them. And what's left you are going to split with your partner. Wait! I forgot about Obamacare! You have to have your health insurance. Did you vote for Obama? I guarantee you are going to be working for less than minimum wage.