They are hiring roofers

There is definitely a few reasons Subs, and therefore Contractors Do Not fix roofs....

And I believe that the Number 1 reason is that they don't have the tools to do this work well.

Of course, laziness, lack of experience, pressure to get the job done, customer expectations/ budget and other screwed up priorities have an effect.

But the WAGES paid to these "BUSINESSMEN" will not support a quality job day in and day out.

Who is roofing pole barns and up and over ranch houses everyday of the year?

Did you forget to deduct $5000 yr. for retirement? Oh wait. We are dirty working scum. Not worthy :angry:

I figured 200 working days a year. With everything you are listing he would still make $100,000 a year.

I know that is under perfect working conditions and that would not happen. The point is that 2 guys could go in a partnership at them prices and make a very good living.

Ya Know, I worked in SC after Hugo for one winter, 1989. Sears paid about $30 sq., if I remember correctly. I had a local boy helping me. I did really good with those wages. Lots of PA retirees around Rock Hill/ Charlotte, NC BTW

It's been awhile. I agree it can be done. Seems like that $30/ sq should've about doubled by now.....most everything else has tripled

My present day costs per sq, with my crew, equipment and benefits are in the mid $60's now. "Subs" here are mimicking each other at about that rate. IF one has work comp, (today maybe, but not next week), then they might be a little higher.

Their tools, as I've said are a joke. The quality....what quality? Still, I can learn something from just about anybody.

I don't think the problem is with my management. We are solid. Quality installs. Gear. Trucks. Insurance. PROFESSIONAL TOOLS. And still no more costly than the "subs"

You are missing my point. I am not saying you can run a crew with all the headaches and the selling and the paperwork...

I see it all the time. 2 guys work together and split the money. They make good livings at those prices. I started subbing until I built a reputation. I made good money at low prices.

OS - That's right on the money.....I remember working for a roofing co. in San Diego, circa early 1980's - Installing comp on 12/12 for $20/sq. 4/12 was $8/sq. 5-6 sq/day on the 12/12 & 12-16 sqs/day on the 4/12.

Definitely 2 perspectives Lefty. Like I said, I did good too.

However, the ad did say you must do a whole roof in one day. This to me means 3 men minimum if sticking to smaller jobs.

When looking for a sub, I am looking for a couple of guys where the owner(s) is on the job. Some of these guys put an ad on Craigslist for help, and then disappear to......go sell work! I am left to supervise laborers! Other times the laborers know more than the owner!

Which is why, at the end of the day, the only sub I am looking for does siding and windows......NO ROOFING SUBS

My name is Jay. Hi Chuck. A little history.........my Dad worked from New York to California. I learned a lot of different styles from him in BUR and Shingles. Work was seven days a week for as long as the sun stayed up. He taught me some great work ethics, I have to remember not to be so f****** nice and giving. Life and bad decisions threw me a curve for the last 4 years but I'm back and lovin the work again. Gotta love the pain because its part of the job and the rewards are endless.

"pseudo-subs" is indeed the correct term.

According to this ad - one could reasonably argue these are employees. The deception is clear. I can't understand why there hasn't been a do-gooder attorney come along and bust this crap wide-open. Just too big I suppose. Kinda like Mary Jane is fed. illegal, but OK per state(s). Fed simply ignores. That's what's happening with fed employment laws.

As for the "pay"; DL = $25/sq, ad labor burden(WC.FICA, etc.)=$38 - $50, (depending on what state your in, reasonable ovhd & profit; A "fair" "pay" to a sub would be more like $80/sq, to install comp on 3-6:12...$80/sq for tear-off

I guess that I did forget to add one thing to my last post: I bought my trucks, ladders and equipment in another place before I went to South Carolina. A place where we were getting paid $50 per sq PLUS B)

These type of roofing applicators are about the only ones left in North Texas. Whatever it takes to finish a job in one day- 6 guys, 8 guys, or 10 guys- sun up to sun set even in 105 degree weather. I even saw a crew up on a 2 story 12 pitch on a 30 degree day finish in one day.

But it is sickening to see what they cover up. Totally day labor type quality work and they could care less.

One Jefe who is the only guy that speaks English and he pulls the dump trailor and rounds up the slaves-er-workers. He makes the most money out of the labor money. No workers comp in Texas, so that saves half the money. And no need to pay taxes because they are travelers and can't be caught.

What's funny-really pitiful- is that the CONtractors claim that "every job supervised" or "our supervisors have 20 years experience".

Ha! They don't stick around long enough to figure out how crappy their work turns out 5, 6 yrs down the line. Insurance just comes in and pays for a new roof.

Seems few know what a quality roof is suppose to look like.

Same here natty. It's gotten to be all about 1 day production. So, that's we have to sell against: pricing

One way or another these people will make money off of insurance work. Even if the price is wrong to begin with.

This would give me a whole new respect for the new construction guys------except they are the ones who switched to high volume, low quality, Exactimate priced replacements.

Went to a small Decra exhibition last week a supplier put on. I was listening as this CLOWN was telling these "Business People" what to charge :dry: :angry: :huh:

In the last 15 years the residential roofing trade for legal American Citizens ( skilled tradesmen ) has been ruined by cheap, illegal Mexican Labor.

I used to brag that I could go to any city in the United States, get a job roofing the next day and get paid within a few days at the latest and probably at the end of the first day. All that was true at the time but today I would be hard pressed to find any work at all.

In 1996, I went to Louisville, Kentucky because I heard they were paying $40 per sq. for subs. ( It was just $30 sq. where I was living ) I started out at that rate, moved on to another company for $50 sq. and then another for $60 sq. 1-layer walkers.

Today in my area, nearly 20 years later, the going rate is the same $40 sq. that was the lowest pay way back in 1996.

Agree with Lefty completely. When it was just me and two other guys, I had all the tools, the truck, etc... I sold some work, and my dad subbed a good bit of work to me. Our deal was this: His jobs I had to buy all material from him at 100% mark-up.

I made extremely good money doing that. I worked hard, I worked fast, I planned ahead well, and I never had people standing around wondering what to do next.

He sold work for $100-110/square, and my material costs were over $60/sq. I could make 60-80K/yr working 8 months. I did it for three years in a row. Life was good. If it hadn't been for my failure to grasp the "rainy day fund" concept, I might still be doing it just that way.

The truth is, I haven't run across too many people that wanted to, were willing to, or even capable of working that hard on a daily basis. The fact they can, are or do don't make them bad.

Being a sub don't make you bad. Being a paper contractor don't make you bad. It's not a business model I want for my own company, but I've seen total crap come from owner/operators just as often as I've seen it from sub companies. Quality comes down to personal choices and love of money. The choice to cut corners for the sake of a dollar exists in every model, it's just easier to make a boat load of dollars quickly using the sub model.