EPDM or Torch Down??

well...yee fricken hawwwwwwwwww!!!

I have read this entire thread over, and you know what. Despite all the chauvinism, testosterone, egotism, and immaturity that has been typed in this thread, If someone were to read between the lines, they would find the answer to almost every issue that engineers face when discussing Modified vs. rubber. It just took a lot of added sarcasm, and ball busting to get there. I would like to think that the original poster got the answer to his question, and that anyone else that was ever curious about what we in the field have to go thru, day after day, with these products, got a great education. I have to admit that some questions, that I might not offer answers as easily as some, come spewing out of my mouth when I am provoked by the opposing position. I think you can learn more by re-reading this thread than you can from a years worth of book learning, and maybe a lifetime.

Just like the analogy of the baseball third base thing...I also have one, and it has provoked a few in here and they know who they are. They don't say much anymore, but like a train wreck, they can't look away.... and here it is....... "PIMPS...please don't provoke the whores on a rainy night!!">>>

Weeeellllp,

While I don't understand or condone Mac's degree of agression and sarcasm, I have certainly been guilty of it myself from time to time.

I do believe that those of us "born on third base" take an undeserved beating. I have yet to meet the decent man that didn't want to see his years of labor benefit his children. I have yet to meet the decent successfull, retired business man that passed on an opportunity to his children that thought the road his children faced was easier than the one he himself walked. The animals we tame may be different, but are no less ferocious, and many of our father's will say "I couldn't do what you do today". In end, a piss poor attitude and poor work ethic will destroy a business, whether it's a startup or a 5th generation. The real truth is that most men don't have what it takes to create a legacy. A lot of startup founders came from just such men. And the childen of many startup founders are just such men as well. In the end, failure or success is our own to make, and the only real stupidity in life is to look an opportunity in the face, tell it "no thanks", then chase down the bus, and tell your second chance ".... the town is that way...." while watching your golden ticket drive away. (from Dumb and Dumber for anyone that's never seen this absolute classic of human nature)

I have met any number of startup founders that deeply desired to pass their business on their children. I have met any number of startup founders that were deeply regretful that their children had no interest, or they had no chidren to pass it on to. I have met many startup founders that had such desire, but in the same breath would curse a multi-generation guy like he was scum. (somehow he didn't see the irony in that)

There isn't a single one of us that succeeds at any level in this business that is a second class citizen, and to hate any of us simply because we are a 2nd or 3rd generation of people with a strong and independent work ethic is nothing less than ignorant jealosy at it's worst. Even a true "silver spoon" can't keep it going forever, and there is always someone hungry beating at the door of your customers.

With that said, the awards that Mac speaks of, regardless of who actually earned them and a subject of which I have no knowledge, are very nice awards. Unlike most mfr's that simply award on the number of squares installed, Firestone's award system is so heavily weighted toward quality, that it is impossible to earn these awards if you have leak call backs, or if you require a re-inspect on your work.

We have earned a few of these awards, although we do not install enough quantity to accumulate the points needed for the highest level. We picked up some biggies in the mid 90's when we did more rubber, but I'm most proud of the "partner in quality" that we earned 8 straight years. You have to be in the top 25% of "least warranty claim expenses", and achieve a certain volume to qualify. Firestone even offers a rebate check on the warranty fees your company paid as those warranties age without expenses being applied to them. We dropped out of the necessary volume level a couple years ago that was required to make it past 8 years. Mac's awards are the same, but at the very highest level of the scale, and he should be proud of them, whether it was him, his dad, his granddad, or his granddad's dog that won them. They do speak loudly to anyone familiar with the Firestone award system.>>>

Oh, yeah, Kenda is another mfr of epdm, and the brand that makes Manville's product at the moment. Manville and Carlisle had a fall-out during the iso shortage when Manville kept their product for their customer's and left Carlisle sort of high and dry. So Carlisle jerked the rubber line from Manville in retaliation, and Manville had to find a new source. Manville's now in the process of trying to establish themselves as a player in the epdm market again.

At least that's the line I've heard. Can't speak to authenticity from personal experience or knowledge.>>>

Mike, I scincerely appreciate all you wrote, although, it may not have been your main reason for writing it, I take it as your taking up my defense to some degree, and I am grateful.

Those of us whom are 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation anything are always saddled with yolk of the perceived "silver spoon" I am here to say, I had anything but, I had to be the first to arrive and the last to leave, "THat is your name on that truck" my father use to tell me. Trust me when I say, my path was not the easy one, but with that being said, There was the groundwork laid out for me, and for that (and many other things) I am extremely gratefull, but as You elluded to mike, It is not what you have that matters, but rather what you do with it, this world is chock full of wasted potential.

On a side note, I must take umbridge with the "degree of sarcasm and aggression" I thought I've held my tounge rather well! I have taken a fairly healthy barrage of shots fired over my bow (Jed, sometimes vaa, et al) before I returned fire! But maybe I still have work to do on that front, Like most I am a work in progress>>>

Mike, born on third base was not a class envy thing. It was a response to Mac dispalying insights of his true feelings of the small operations that populate the roofing world. As for generation passing, when my son graduated from college, I had two roofing businesses doing a little over three million between them. I was overwhelmed (I didn't even have a salesman or estimator) and could have easily found many things he could have done for me that could have grown my businesses. But he opted to try things on his own.

He took a job at the Commerce Dept in DC. While there, he got a masters at Johns Hopkins and then went on to get a MBA from Wharton. He has gone on to things so much bigger than anything I could have built up my businesses to be that I'm thankful that I never pressured him to join me and be an anchor on his potential.

But losing the pressure to build something for the kids freed me to return to being a craftsman. I'll never be a NRCA board member, but I know of a past NRCA president that when when he needs work done on either of his two houses, he doesn't call any of the over 100 roofers he has, he calls me. In fact, I'll be going there again next Tuesday.>>>

Mac,

You're welcome. I'm an equal opportunity offender/defender.

wywoody, I could have elaborated. The silver spoon sits a little close to me, but I don't agree with the way Mac belittles small operators. We all have our place, our desires, our goals. None are right or wrong, imho. What matters is that we are satisfied. Few of the people that chase big dreams ever find satisfaction, because they are looking in the wrong place.

I enjoyed your comments. I can relate, and I'm glad for your son. I didn't want mine to roof either. My dad didn't want me to do it. But school is not for all of us. I was one of those super students that skated through school with a 3.5 gpa without ever opening a book. Got accepted to a very difficult school to attend, The Citadel................. and the long story short is my failure to establish good study habits hurt me. I came home to roof. I often wish I had finished my degree, but on the other hand, I know that my oldest son would not exist if I had. Therefore, my first grandson would not exist either. It all works out for those with faith, in the end. I am satisfied. I am happy. And whether there is a Hicks Industrial Roofing in operation 20 years from now, or not, will have no bearing on the condition of my soul.

The fact is, that I tip my hat to any man that started with nothing and earned his way through life..... be it with 100 employees or 1. My dad says "I couldn't do what you do". I'm not sure I could do what my grandpa did. Maybe I would have. I do think we have succeeders and failers in this world, but I don't think the thickness of our wallets has anything to do with those descriptions.>>>

Vaa I am not "claiming" it as you say. It is a family business, 6 family members work there, so wdnt u say that the succes's or failures wd be shared by all? Mike's company HRI roofing has been around since 1947. was Mike roofing in 1947? Most likely not, yet his company and it's success', and experiences measured or not, are still valid when he makes his points on things aren't they?

And wywoody, you have no idea my "insights" or "true feelings" towards the small operation, Iwas responding to those "small operations" that fit my claim, as were you and others (big box lowes type roofing co) were making about me.>>>

my point specifically towards "small ops" was based on a point made to me regarding big box store style company, and then alluding to the fact that I am qauntity, not qaulity, I pointed out that you can be both, and that there is a percentage of small ops, that are small because they lack the drive, ability, emotional quotient, attitude, to grow, not because they do not want to, but because they cant, so, they then justify their position, as opposed to improve their position. And you will ussualy hear, that they do not want to be big because big co's are all about the qauntity not qaulity.

I admit, I probably should have made that clearer, I respect anyone, regardless of size, by what is in their hearts, and how they live their life, pure and simple

And btw, Their are 5 roofing co's in my family, I would say that none of them are considered very big. But they are known. >>>

well guys, been real and it's been fun, just not real fun!

I am out, going back under my rock.

Good luck all.>>>

Is the angst in the idea that we are not what we have imagined ourselves, I'm hearing it from both sides and really if we had what we really wanted most of us would not be roofing at all, Because we don't I'm getting ready to watch a movie check back>>>

"The real truth is that most men don't have what it takes to create a legacy."

Could you expand on this Mike? And, your definition of a legacy?>>>

JSC,

Sure.

Well, it's harder than I thought, cuz I've erased 3 attempts. At first I started to write: Most men are happy with a job.

But then I substituted the word "happy", with content...... and.................... the problem is that most men simply aren't happy or content. They aren't happy with their job, their not happy with their wife, their not happy with their dad, their not happy with their kids, or their not happy with their own business. They are so busy trying to live up to something unknown, that they hate themselves for failing to reach that pinacle of some personal measure that even they are at a loss to define.

The word "legacy" has nothing to do with the status of one's business, job or lot in life. I has to do with being happy, content, satisfied,.............. teaching your children values that make a man a man, loving your wife like the treasure she is (ok, so not all of them are, neither are we). Unfortunately, most men are trapped in some world of gross discontent. They have made a shambles of their lives, and many of the lives around them, whether it's resulted in a broken family or not, it has resulted in a life of misery, self-doubt, disturbed children and a final question mark in the old age that begs the questions: Who am I? What have I accomplished? Have I made a difference? What should I have done different? etc....

A legacy is when those that knew you gathered around your casket and felt nothing but remorse for the man they have lost, and gratitude for the love he has given and example that he was.

At least that's what it would mean to me.

But given the context of how it was used, I can understand the question.>>>

Mac,

Crawling back under a rock after a decent dialog was starting ain't the answer.

If you could come to grips with the fact that you've kind of earned your reputation with a few of these guys, and worked to change it, everyone could benefit.

Don't interpret that mean that I don't think others are equally, or at least nearly as much so, at fault.>>>

Vaa,

Goodyear played with that almost 20 years ago. It never took off here, and I can't speak to it's ultimate effectiveness. It is worth note that it's not actually the EPDM that's being welded. As a thermoset membrane, epdm is not weldable. It's only due to the addition of the thermoplastic product strip during the curing stage of the epdm that makes this possible. At least that's my limited understanding of these products.>>>

JSC,

As I used it, in it's context, I meant that most men simply don't have the total package of personal character, love and committment to build a business, maintain a marriage, raise a family, successfully holding it all together, and manage to pass it on to children that had the same exceptional characteristics that enabled him to pull it all off.

But it could be applied to anyone, anywhere. Not just a business owner/founder.>>>