Dead valley question

Bdub, thanks for the words cheerleading for copper. I may learn soldering copper as a hobby, but I guarantee you, I would never do it as part of roofing. I have soldered copper pipes 3 different times and never had any leaks. But I greatly dislike the the "suddenness" that happens when soldering pipes. I don't feel like I have any control.

The backlog I face in tile maintenance will fill out my career, so there is no need for me to start going out saying "here let me make that detail copper and I'll guarantee it until I'm 110."

Clvr and Tinner, one of the reasons I didn't use a flat lock was it takes away the ability to make any adjustments or slide under existing siding at the top of a cricket. You are dealing with two walls and a pitched roof that intersect, the ability to slide even a tiny bit is valuable.

I haven't used that method for a long time because I started using single-ply and SA for most of them. The rest of them,after enduring a couple of EIFS lawsuits, I feel no shame at looking at tough details and saying "let a sheet metal guy do it."

Getting to the job with 60mil I realized that if I didn't at least give it a whirl with the 24ga Kynar in the shop, I should just sell my brake now. I figured I would learn something bending $100 worth of metal right in to the scrap pile. As it turns out, I can use it! Not the most beautiful folds I've ever seen, but functional.

It wouldn't have took so long if I had initially noticed that it has a very subtle pitch change. Duh.

I think I could definitely do better next time, but doubt I will see any problems for a long time out of this one. edit: I also had my carpenter re-cut that bottom piece of cedar, too close to valley.

Went ahead and metal'd the cricket since I had the break there.

Looks good man! Im sure you did the best with the budget they had. I knew they wouldnt want copper was just answering your question. I really like your chimney cricket. I used to put those on shingle roofs too. Best you can do with shingles in my opinion. I cant tell is the chimney cricket 1 piece?

Wywoody.... I have to point out that i exist in a completely different market. I work on homes in the 10 - 50 mil range. In this market as well as historic restoration, there are well proven standards. When building a permanent roof, it is critical that every single detail is permanent as well.

Thanks, it's a two piece cricket. Sealed w/ NP1 - hope it holds up like it says. I think I could do that cricket again in just a fraction longer than it would take to shingle it. Loading up the break would be the time killer.

I think copper would have been a heck of a lot easier in the dead valley. It had a slight change in direction/pitch, do you think I could have stretched the copper a bit to do it in one piece? Not worth it? Other problems?

I know this is pretty basic stuff for a lot of you guys, but I only know of one other company near us doing things like this. And they only do sheet metal jobs and HVAC, mainly commercial.

bdub, you're right we are completely different markets. I have done plenty of work on houses in the $2-11 million range. But for a price comparison, this is a house that we recently did maintenance to prepare it to list.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/16516-NE-130th-Ave-Brush-Prairie-WA-98606/23319237_zpid/

It sold for $800,000 within a week of being listed. If that house were on Paradise island Bahamas or Atherton CA, it would be a 10- 15 million dollar house. But would that have made the roof any better? Apples to oranges.

I live 70 miles inland, but occasionally work on customers' beach homes that are subject to salt air and upgrade to either copper or stainless. I prefer stainless because of better compatibility and impact resistance.

Whenever I am teaching someone about repairing tile roofs, the first thing I teach them is ATD. Attention to detail. You are there to correct someones' lack of ATD. I don't know about you, but I don't put less effort on details differently for a 50 year roof than I would for a "permanent" roof.

I avoid historic restorations because I avoid bureaucracy. But I still work on clay roofs and install copper flashings on them a half dozen times a year. But never when an architect, archivist, GC etc are involved.

Clvr, have you ever tried to make a 1 piece cricket? Its so fast and easy, like you said much faster than wood, shingles and step flashing. With a 1 piece you do end up with a void where the "ridge" meets on each end. When i did asphalt i used eternabond tape on those voids. Not sure if thats any better, just sharing experience.

Yes, with the proper techniques copper can do anything. That being said, i think what you did was appropriate for that house. I respect you for asking about copper! Good to know all your options.

Wywoody, wow! Thats a lot of house for only 800k!!! I love the look of the kitchen. Sure miss seeing brick too lol.

Im a firm believer of the old rule of 10% of the cost of a home going toward the roof. Im confident that a permanent roof could be achieved on that home for the 10%. Then again, is the construction of this home compatible with permanent roofing? Ive lived in the usa and it reminds me of a modern production home.

This is for sure, yes that would be a 10-15 mil home here in nassau, and yes a permanent roof would cost close to a mil. However, around here that would not be considered a fine home and would get a cheap roof. By cheap i mean metal or concrete at best. Probably around 2k per square.

We live in different countries that are extremely different so really comparison is kind of a waste of time. But the 10% rule applies everywhere. Unfortunately its tuff to get 1% these days meanwhile landscapers are getting no less than 20%! This reflects the prevailing mindset and priorities.

I dont want to get confused as though im attempting to "sell" people on permanent roofs, just here to give my 2cents as someone who never touches a temporary roof.

Would i do details differently on a temp roof? Heck yes!! My problem is that i dont which is why i have to stay away from temp roofs because i lose money overdoing my details and with certain products like "metal" for instance, permanent details are not an option. But i did catch myself when i did asphalt, i was installing copper step flashings, ground in then packed with lead wool, etc. Someone asked me why i was installing permanent flashings on 10yr roofs? From then i stepped it down to aluminum and caulking. Made more sense.

I was recently asked to install large copper crickets on a new home. I asked what the roofing would be. They said enviroshake. I said no need to use copper. Its a huge waste of money when that roof will be torn off within 5 yrs tops. Besides i wont put my work on those type if homes for fear it "cheapens" my brand. Anyway the plans called for tpo on the small flats around the dormers so i said they would be best off with tpo everywhere else. Like Kurtis, i hate to see good copper go to waste.

I respect that you stay away from middlemen. I refuse to work for them myself. I must deal with owner 1on 1 or no deal. Learned that the hard way. Lol

Hey permanent roofing isnt for everyone or every home. I say if youre making money and happy, stay doing what youre doing just dont disrespect permanent roofing. If someone here is struggling and looking to reinvent themselves, perhaps pierce into a new market, theres people here to help. We need more of us. You run into a situation that calls for details that exceed yours, call Kurtis. He will knock your socks off, impress your customer and give no bs, no guessing, real deal, permanent results.

Thx for the dialogue. Respect guys

clvr...... looks great man !

Would love to see more info on the cricket you made. I would like to try that myself. Im pretty handy with a brake, yet... have never made a cricket before. I've always shingled them. I think that looks fantastic, & can think of a few scenarios where that would work better than shingling one.

bdub, this is my Bahamas experience;

While on the cruise ship over, my family was trying to talk me out of renting a scooter and doing a lap of the island. On the night before we got to Nassau, they stuck a flier under the door that said: Do not rent scooters, YOU WILL DIE.

That, of course steeled my resolve, all I had to do was survive and I become a death-defyer.

So I go to the scooter rental area and soon discover things are much different in this country. Unlike US car rental companies that require a credit card, these places require cash and can't even process a credit card.

The Bob Marley-looking guy takes me to my scooter and the first thing I notice is that the brake lever is broken! There are going to be some challenges to surviving the day. I mention it and the guy offers to let me choose another one. But as I look around, about half of them have broken levers and the nub remaining on mine is bigger than the others and my scooter is the only Japanese brand (the others all Chinese knockoffs), so I stick with the first one they offered.

I begin my ride, constantly telling myself "keep to the left". I soon discover that if you drive a scooter there and try to be overly polite, the locals will run you off the road. You have to ASSERT yourself. I also am amazed at the high proportion of cars on the road that are in a condition best described as "barely running" and wonder how they do it.

After surviving my ride, I go on a tour with my wife, d-I-l, and two grandchildren. We are sharing the van with a Miami family that wants to stock up on booze and pot, so we get the deluxe tour. We go over the hill to where the locals live to a liquor store. It looks like an old gas station with bars on the windows, absolutely no signage and a small crowd outside of it drinking beer. The pot was scored in the fish shacks under the bridge to Paradise Island.

When I was in the residential area around the liquor store I discovered how all the locals keep their beaters running. They all seem to have 2 or 3 parts cars in their yards.

One thing I didn't see was an abundance of permanent roofs. Other than government buildings I didn't notice much copper. There was more clay tile than here, but no more than in Florida.

The tour took us to an upscale residential neighborhood and the tour guide mentioned a couple of names that owned homes in it, but it was just an average upscale neighborhood. Now,I know the neighborhoods that have the high end homes probably have gates to keep tour buses out, but I never saw anything that should command over a couple of million dollars.

bdub: I have seen the 1 piece cricket, but didn't like that giant opening at the top. I wasn't sure how to close that off, maybe just caulk a cap piece over it? Would eternabond last 25 years? My two piece may need service in less than that, I don't know. That will be up to our old friend NP1.

Roofdude: Thanks! This was my first one, we have always shingled them. It's pretty simple. Here is a picture from the other direction showing how it's folded over. I hope it lasts the life of this roof, I expect 25 years out of my shingled roofs(naive?)

clvr83 Said: I hope it lasts the life of this roof, I expect 25 years out of my shingled roofs(naive?)

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Why? Isn't that shingle Malarkey Legacy?- an impact resistant life time shingle

Highlander good eye

Speaking of Malarkey's, do you have problems with them scarring very badly? Like in direct sunlight on a 75 degree day? Or do you only run the Legacy's?

clvr83 Said: Speaking of Malarkeys, do you have problems with them scarring very badly? Like in direct sunlight on a 75 degree day? Or do you only run the Legacys?