Union verses Non-union

This question is for the employees, not the employers out there.

Given a choice between working for a union company or non-union company, which would you choose?

Is there a roofers union in your state? How do their wages compare to non-union wages?

With all the talk about illegals and low ball bidders, I wonder why there isn't more discussion about the advantages to being in a union? >>>

We are union, and we do roofing and carpentry too. It works for us. I wonder the same thing sometimes!>>>

I would'nt hire union if they were the last "workers" on the planet. Complete waste of rations. All I have met, and been forced to work alongside. Overweight, lazy, nepotistic thieves. Chancers. Get rid of them. They came here to our shop about four mths ago looking to recruit and I told them they would be arrested for tresspassing if they ever showed up again. Nothing against you old school. I don't know you. I do know you use a hook instead of a bib, and the only reason I can think of is a hook will need replacing one day where a bib will last for the life of the roof......

Edit: substitute "Workers" for employees.>>>

I use both bib and hook.

They each have their advantage in certain situations.

I have seen a copper bib wear through the center water line and need to be replaced.

I don't see how a copper or stainless hook would need to be replaced unless installed poorly. But I could be wrong.

Similar thoughts about union/non-union workers and employers. Seen both good and bad of both.

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The hooks wear out on the curve. Stress fracture enhanced by water flow and movement of slate rubbing on hook over the years and they break off. Iv'e seen a bib "thin out" due to water flow but not worn through, it might happen but would surely take much longer...>>>

I've dealt with unions on two levels. As an employer, I had a project (2 powerhouses at dams)that required me to become a union company. My employees didn't get that much more money because I paid their initiation fees up front and then deducted them from the wages on the job. A couple of them felt cheated and quit to do work through the union. One came back to work for me after about 6 months because the amount of work they had for him was spotty. The other enjoyed being high-paid with lots of down time.

When I was in Canada in 1976, I worked for a union company. One day a guy asked me how much they were paying me. I told him and it was the same he was getting. The guy went berserk and filed a grievance against the company because I hadn't gone through the union training. This in spite of the fact I was his foreman and my output was way more than anyone else was doing. The weird thing was the same guys that were upset, still invited me to their parties and I socialised with them all the time. But after years of only doing piece-work roofing, I found getting a high salary almost like being on vacation, never having to calculate how you did at the end of the day.>>>

lol I worked up north for a while many years ago as a subcontractor. I hired this guy who kept bragging over and over about being a "union roofer". The very first day i took all the guys to a job and got them all started. Then i had to run an errand that only took a few minutes. When i got back this "union roofer" was nailing the shingles on upside down! lol I fired him on the spot as i didnt have the time ( or patience ) to train an upside down "union roofer". lol>>>

I can't answer the questions but I can offer the following commentary:

We've had 4 employees leave for the union. 3 were in drug trouble with our policy when they left. 1 was not, and left solely for the promise of bigger money. The 3 never came back. The 1 was gone for 2 weeks, came and asked for his job back. Said "I can't work with people like that. Worst attitudes I've ever seen, and the money wasn't much different after all things were considered".>>>

"The hooks wear out on the curve. Stress fracture enhanced by water flow and movement of slate rubbing on hook over the years and they break off."

Well there ya go, learn something new every day. I will be sure to examine the hooks I see on the next slate job.

Thanks Jed>>>

I use both methods, but predominately slate hooks. Have been using them for about 30 years and I have never seen one break off yet. I have galvanized hooks and also copper ones. Why wouldn't the nails "stress and break off" for the same reason?

Regarding union vs. non-union, don't you realize that you can fire them? We run the lazy and incompetent ones off too. By and large though, the better people and craftsmen are going to be the union ones. I can assure you this, if you had me working for you, you would be paying about $60,000.00 a year with benefits and you would be asking me where you could find about 10 more like me. You wuld be making money and you wouldn't have to worry about the job being done right or theft or waste or stolen tools. Safety would be an important aspect of the business, and we would produce. I am on the job early every day, and I give 8 hours work for 8 hours of pay.

I know what you are talking about, but stop painting everyone with the same brush!>>>

The nails don't "stress and break off" because nails don't do that when hammered into the roof. That's what they are designed for. Second, you can't just fire a union roofer. It takes an act of congress to do that and everyone knows it. Unions are designed to protect their own, it is a principal at the very core of their charter. If it were'nt they would implode. Divide and conquer. Fer crissakes they just bankrupted the largest carmaker in the WORLD. Do we learn nothing from that? The unemployment rate in Michigan right now is 15%. Why? I don't want a roofer to give me 8 hrs work for 8 hrs pay. I want 10 for 8 and I'll slip him an extra hundred bucks at the end of the week with an attaboy. Not because of the extra production, but because of the attitude..... 'an If I ever see a new hire pull up and climb out of his truck donning safety glasses and a hard hat he'll be fired before he even starts up the ladder......sixty grand a yr with bennies says it all. >>>

O/S nothing aginst you, like I said. I could write a book on why unions are bad news, as I'm sure many others could. The only proponent of such an organisation is likely one who is employed by them. Like ciak and the ins industry, the difference between you two is you are genuine and are being objective about who your employer is. I respect your views/your work and the knowledge you bring to us all. I'm gonna get off this thread now.>>>

Well Jed, I appreciate that! I will tell you that it doesn't matter what you are paid, but what you produce. If you pay someone 15K a year and he costs you 25K, you lose. If you pay 60K and he makes you 80K you win.

I work for a Union leasing company. That is kind of like a private union hall. The good ones are snapped up right away and when things are busy, we get the situation like you are talking about. On the other hand, if you get a bad apple in this kind of situation, you don't fire them, you "Lay them off" That doesn't take an act of Congress, it just takes a layoff check!

One more question: what would you say to one of your employees if he/she was cutting lumber or grinding without safety glasses? How about walking around on a construction site beneath scaffolding and people working above without a hard hat? Would you condone it? My greatest fear is being injured by soneone elses carelessness. I say safety first.

A roofer was critically injured in Kalamazoo yesterday. He fell from a flat roof with a large piece of machinery (I am assuming a power broom or a roof cutter) and evidently landed on his head. It doesn't sound or look good. That is death we are talking about, and there is no second chance. Safety starts with the correct attitude, and it is learned one. Bad mouthing the small things leads to larger accidents and death.>>>

An accident, is just that. An accident. Like being struck by lightening, or broadsided by a semi. Almost everything else involves negligence, and usually, not thinking of what you are doing and being aware of circumstance. Walking off a roof running a power broom is stupid. We had a laborer less than two months ago walking backwards on a flat panel roof, wearing a harness that was'nt tied off, step on a plastic deadlight and fall to his death. Fell onto a hydraulic pipe bending machine 35 feet below. Bled out cradled in the arms of two of the factory workers. 23 yrs old. Dead. Not thinking. Safety does indeed start with attitude.>>>

But Jed, if he had been paid $10/more per hour, he would have been smarter.

All kidding aside, that is a horrible shame. The only thing that a good crew, be they union or non, could have accomplished with a strong Team-Safety mentality, perhaps someone would have paid closer attention to everyone's fall arrest equipment. Maybe not. It's a culture issue, not a pay issue.>>>

oh my! That is terrible no matter who it was.>>>