SPF Industry Getting Saturated?

I tried to think of a way to start this thread in a way that doesn't appear self-serving. That doesn't seem possible so I'll just launch into it and take my lumps.

There have been contractors who sold their emulsion rig to get into SPF, and conversely we've had 4 contractors in the last year who were SPF contractors who decided to buy an emulsion rig. That tells me that something is in play that is more than meets the eye. I'm trying to understand that.

One new customer is a Phoenix SPF'r who bought an emulsion rig and came to Texas because there are so many foamers in Pheonix now that they're doing SPF over gravel BUR for around $200/SQR. They're killing each other. Heard the same thing from a West Coast roofing contractor, that foamers are tripping over each other out there.

More anecdotal reasoning is that in our 200k population town of Lubbock, there are at least 15 foamers now. That's 1 foam rig for every 13,333 people. Granted, not all of them do just roofs, but all of them but 1 does roofs.

Are they over-selling foam rigs? Saturating the industry can only drive down profits for contractors. The double-dip part of that is that when SPF contractors go belly up, their $50,000 rig gets sold by the bank for $20,000 and now a new guy is ready to bid roofs even cheaper.

This isn't unique to SPF rigs, I readily admit that. As this economy breaks roofers, more and more of our used rigs came on the market and created a secondary market for used rigs. Suddenly there are contractors out there who paid $10,000 for a rig rather than $30,000, have no training, yet are now fully equipped to become a nuisance low baller.

Ya can't blame SPF rig manufacturers selling as many rigs as they can, that's the business they're in. There has to be a fallout somewhere down the line.

Wouldn't bother me a bit if they all went under. That stuff is pure junk.......at ANY price.

JET

JET Said: Wouldnt bother me a bit if they all went under. That stuff is pure junk.......at ANY price.

JET

Like you probably did, I formed my opinions about PUF many years ago. That may be unfair to SPF because I'm sure improvements have been made...among them is that they don't even call it PUF anymore. :) In the general sense I agree, I think there are better places for it than on the roof.

HAHA! Every roofing contractor's association disagrees with the "junk" roofing theory on SPF.

I maintain a 20 year old foam roof for a major national corporation that is in great shape and just needs to phase in the re-coat.

I can't really blame you guys for fearing what you don't know... That is how most wars are implemented...pure ignorance. LMAO

Aaron Said: HAHA! Every roofing contractors association disagrees with the junk roofing theory on SPF.

I maintain a 20 year old foam roof for a major national corporation that is in great shape and just needs to phase in the re-coat.

I cant really blame you guys for fearing what you dont know... That is how most wars are implemented...pure ignorance. LMAO

Aaron, I don't dispute that SPF has value. But these facts are pretty well accepted too: 1. It's more difficult to put on correctly than most other systems. 2. A lot of people are getting into the system, driving down installed-price in an already tough market. 3. It's more expensive to get into than other systems (chopped glass is more expensive to get into, too).

Every system has it's downside, including mine and yours. Probably what is at work here that is less obviuos to the casual observer is that you don't derive some of your income from groups like this - we do. That means you approach this group more from a standpoint of pride, and I approach it more from a standpoint of the normal locking horns that goes along with selling and competing.

What I noticed 20 +/- years ago in Calif., was that the majority of the SPF contractors were never roofers or roofing contractors....That surely led to less than desirable results....Mobile home accessory contractors did it a lot as I recall....That was good place for it, (trailers)....

It seems as though SPF's popularity moves around different parts of the country...kinda like someone who moves around a lot to escape their past. Eventually that rep catches up with them again and, zip, time to move on, right Jed? ;)

Gotta hand it to ya, you did a very thorough job of hiding your identity through hundreds and hundreds of posts, and I can now see why. Alas, a few photos with linked-files and a few jedbr@bellsouth.net etc and it was just a tad short of perfect anonymity.

Rest assured, you will received exactly the degree of forbearance you have reserved for me and others. Shall we begin in CT? Anything you want to get off your chest there, Jeddie?

Those in glass houses... :)

Roofguy Said: Aaron, I dont dispute that SPF has value. But these facts are pretty well accepted too: 1. Its more difficult to put on correctly than most other systems. 2. A lot of people are getting into the system, driving down installed-price in an already tough market. 3. Its more expensive to get into than other systems (chopped glass is more expensive to get into, too).

Every system has its downside, including mine and yours. Probably what is at work here that is less obviuos to the casual observer is that you dont derive some of your income from groups like this - we do. That means you approach this group more from a standpoint of pride, and I approach it more from a standpoint of the normal locking horns that goes along with selling and competing.

1. Yes, SPF is more difficult to install than any other system I have done. This means that to do it right, you gotta know your stuff. This doesn't warrant trashing another system to sell yours. If someone skimps on emulsions, I don't trash emulsions... that responsibility lies squarely on the particular installer, not on your source of income, like you guys do to us SPF'ers.

2. Yes, but they will fail, and in the process making the rest of us look bad. Fortunately, O have my references as well as long-successful upper end applications to refer back to. You have to be a roofer to be successful with SPF. Insulators try it, and have no previous experience with roofing, and screw things up.

3. Also correct, Tim. Now this point to me is another reason to make sure you're doing it right. Schooling in the system is a must, IMO, and I don't turn down any training that is offered.

Those that say it is junk simpply don't know what a proper SPF install is all about.They can't service, repair, maintain, specify, or even answer a question about it, so they bash it. Lowest of the low if you ask me.

I'm glad that you seem to be keeping things in perspective nowadays.

I get a few magazines about SPF, polyureas, and coatings. I know that doesn't by any means make me the encyclopedia of knowledge in these areas, but it opens my eyes to the potential business in these fields, which is vast.

Especially eye-opening is the corrosion maintenance end of the high-end coatings (pipelines, bridges, ships, etc).

But I ain't young anymore, and don't have another lifetime to become proficient in these areas, which are indeed another trade within themselves. And you'd better have one helluva highly trained and intelligent crew for them and the equipment necessary.

It's still kinda riveting though, and I'll bet some contractors who know their stuff are making some serious money.

SPF is no different than single ply manufacturers of the 80s and 90s. They're setting everyone up to get their product out of the warehouse. There's going to be a lot of people give the product a bad name. Eventually, there will be some strong contractors come out of the mix. The only difference is there won't really be many tailgate SPFers.

---I once saw a residential home with SPF. I was asked to inspect the roof as it was for sale. The homeowner raved about how great it was. It looked like a disaster to me. It was old and I know nothing about this product. So I gave it a thumbs down. I don't know how the guy ever got it to pass any inspections. Lanny

lanny Said: ---I once saw a residential home with SPF. I was asked to inspect the roof as it was for sale. The homeowner raved about how great it was. It looked like a disaster to me. It was old and I know nothing about this product. So I gave it a thumbs down. I dont know how the guy ever got it to pass any inspections. Lanny

Hmmmm you knew nothing, so you gave it a thumbs down... pretty typical of ignorance.

lanny Said: ---I once saw a residential home with SPF. I was asked to inspect the roof as it was for sale. The homeowner raved about how great it was. It looked like a disaster to me. It was old and I know nothing about this product. So I gave it a thumbs down. I dont know how the guy ever got it to pass any inspections. Lanny

This is the main problem with SPF, *appearance* along with a lack knowledge/experience/exposure, and contributes largely to the bad rap that the system gets. When joining the company I work for now I had zero knowledge of SPF but it was pretty much all they did. I was brought in to help with a new division being built, a conventional roofing side. Hence I have had the pleasure of working closely with, though not participating in, the system, the materials and machinery, and the accredited "foamers" who actually do the work. Having zero knowledge and thus not being exposed to the bad reputation that SPF has, put me in a postition to judge the system on it's merits. Now I'm no RRC nor do I have the dearth of knowledge that many of the older contributers on this board have but having worked with many different systems in a half dozen countries what I see with SPF is a roof that IF APPLIED CORRECTLY with attention being applied to the substrate being covered, the mix ratio of the compounds, the dew point at the time of application, and a few other integral factors, a foam roof might just be the best system I've seen. Aesthetically the waves and contours of the roof as it slopes towards drains, and away from penetrations blew me away and the thickness and feel of the roof underfoot and the granules covering it inspire confidence in their touch. That said, a foam roof that was applied with scant attention being paid to the above, the open sores that were once blisters, the peeling of the coating that once covered a multitude of sins, and the large puddles that were left by a roofer with a foam gun as opposed to the mop and buggy which are the tools of his trade, is an abomination, painful to the eyes and will break a roofers heart, understandably turning him against foam for life. Such is the gravity of the experience. The energy savings and R value of SPF far outweigh any other system I know of and with a MAINTENANCE PLAN that involves a clean and recoat every 10 years(at minimal expense) the system will out perform all others, even pitch.

Disclaimer. Like I said we have a large foam side to this company but as a project manager I have little to do with it and it does very nicely without me pushing the product

As an insulation product I would endorse its use. As a roofing product........forget it.

JET

JET Said: As an insulation product I would endorse its use. As a roofing product........forget it.

JET

I am willing to listen to your reasoning. Can you cite specific valid reasons as to why, other than that you know nothing about any of it?

Doesn't seem to saturated around here, although at one time it was filled with guys that would foam over anything. That helped. We just don't see foam as a roof product much. The two places I've done it seem to be doing quite well. The one owner is absolutely tickled to death.

There are guys that got into foam for the interior insulation, and as the home building market has crashed, they've looked elsewhere. Most of their rigs don't have the pressure to put on polyurea, so that's the market we really pursue.