Mansard Problems

clvr83 Said: natty: Im not saying the word lawsuit to these folks. I told them it was incorrect, but I was wondering if they would go that route.

I manually sealed every shingle on my last mansard, Ive been sleeping great since.

People who own properties like this don't really care about quality- they care about collecting rents, getting tax breaks, and going cheap. Asphalt shingles on vertical surfaces is really going cheap. Technically, I think there is a difference between a mansard roof and a vertical wall. Vertical walls need siding, not shingles. That said, as long as supposed professionals keep doing crappy work and continue to get away with it, sooner than later, crappy work is all that is going to be out there.

I'm surprised at the other contractor. Very good reputation, demands the highest price for his work always. Unfortunately, we've had our crew screw us over when we weren't looking a decade ago, so I will retain my respect his firm even after this.

Lefty: I strongly agree with your comment in the other thread that T&M rewards inefficiency. I'm proud to say that's not our style.

And it can also be said that bid work kills quality.

I LOVE T&M work when I have the right guy doing it. Job done well. Future headaches avoided. And....workinga niche area that most roofers avoid as much as they can

I can not slow myself down to where T&M is profitable.

With T&M I would need to put my most untrained and slowest workers on that job. Why would I put my best workers on a T&M job.

If I put my best workers on a T&M the customer would be the only one to win. My best workers will take the least amount of time and use the least amount of materials. It was not my mistake. Why should my workers and the company suffer for someone else's mistakes?

If I bid the job originally and did not get the job and am called back to repair it. I add a stupid tax. They had the chance to have it done right the first time and choose someone else. Now you pay extra.

Ahhh....... the ol "stupid tax"..... one of my favorties!!!

Maybe you're not charging enough for your time then Lefty. I actually charge more for T&M work than bid / priced work.

A different set of expenses. A different market. Different task.

For me. Your business structure might well be....different :)

"Lefty: I strongly agree with your comment in the other thread that T&M rewards inefficiency. I'm proud to say that's not our style"

If you have any respect for your clients, this is a non issue. Come to the job prepared as well as you can be, work hard and bill them.

Lefty: The stupid tax is utilized here too. I don't see my company or my workers suffering because of T&M. I see it as a job where they can't lose. Like I said, I don't do many jobs T&M, and this won't be the last work I do on this building.

You sound a lot like my Dad(other times as well), it took a while to convince him to do T&M on occasion. He still isn't wild about it, though.

Twill: Agreed, I would imagine we all know a guy or two who charges a low rate and then milks it. I'd rather charge what I'm worth and work like I always do.

Clv83, I would not do this job with the scope of work as you are going to do it.

I would give them a price to keep fixing the shingles that drop. Once or twice a year. Say $800 for up to 1 bundle of shingles. Then a price for the 40 squares to re-roof. Let them make a choice. They may keep fixing for 5 years then re-roof. This way they can budget for the cost. With this approach you will never look like the bad guy. You will look like the person who gave them a choice.

The problem as I see it. You are going to re-nail all the shingles. This will break the adhesive that keeps the shingles together. You are creating a bigger problem. Once this adhesive is broken, I do not care how you nailed them, they will start to sag. Gravity is going to play its hand. Wind will start to blow off the parts of the shingles where the adhesive is broken. The pictures that Frank posted shows what can happen to the adhesive just from the sun. With your scope there is the potential to look like the first contractor.

You do not have this with 3 tabs.

I definitely agree with your approach there Lefty.

If your work starts to fail also....whoops!

If I was to give the whole project a T&M, or even a "bid Price" , "Ballpark" estimated price.....what usually happens when I factor in all of the what ifs and possible scenarios of what else could be wrong, I'd possibly be at replacement cost prices.

Giving them smaller portions of this to digest and work through is a reasonable approach

Twill59, Exactly, It would not make financial sense to do a tune up on that roof. My cost would also be close to replacement, if not more. The time to unseal and re-nail and re-seal the shingle, plus replace all the ones you are going to damage, it would not be cost effective for the building owner.

I do quite a lot of T&M work. I usually give a price range guesstimate if asked.

A while back I told a guy his repair, which had a lot of variables, would be between $4200 and $5000. He responded "Cut the sh*t, we both know you'll come in at $4990."

I told him that he overestimated my greed, I would be more subtle at something like $4938. He laughed and told me he wanted a fixed price and if I could do it for $4938, it was mine. When I finally finished, if he had accepted the original offer, his work would have been around $4600.

wywoody Said: I do quite a lot of T&M work. I usually give a price range guesstimate if asked.

A while back I told a guy his repair, which had a lot of variables, would be between $4200 and $5000. He responded Cut the sh*t, we both know youll come in at $4990.

I told him that he overestimated my greed, I would be more subtle at something like $4938. He laughed and told me he wanted a fixed price and if I could do it for $4938, it was mine. When I finally finished, if he had accepted the original offer, his work would have been around $4600.

Your example proves that people do not want T&M prices. That is why we always give a firm price. We give people what they want and that is a choice.

I think it would be hard to do a T&M contract if you are larger than a one or two man show. How would you justify to the customer the "company overhead" in terms of wages for a secretary or estimator, office rent, debt servicing etc. If you are small you can do alright on a T&M if the customer knows up front what you are going to be billing for. On a T&M I let them know that the clock starts when I leave home and ends when I get back home. There is a charge for administration, consult time, picking up materials, fuel, payroll burden and Workers Comp are tacked on as a % on all wages plus a % tacked on for profit. Some people want to do T&M and they don't mind paying for everything. It may be more administration time and paperwork but if you are charging for that already it is covered.

Seen it all, That is right on. Lefty, like Twill said, if you are not making money on a T & M job, something is wrong.

What you have to do is to "define" time and material. I charge different amounts depending on what I am working on. slate commands a higher per hour rate than shingles for example. Included in my per hour labor rate are all of the expenses for the man, plus the cost of running the business. The materials are at retail. I then add the two together and tack on a 15% profit margin. I add that to the expenses of any subs too. There is no risk involved for me so how/why can I loose? for the building owner, it makes sense in that I don't have to guess at what it would cost, and play games. They trust me and I work hard and efficiently.