Double paper

So we shingled two buildings, 70sq a piece. Tear off old, leave paper, (as is the norm down here), apply 30lb felt, install GAF 30yr Timberlines, cap and leave. Then the brew, hah hah starts when some twat from the building who used to be a GC pics up the shingle wrapper and claims that under a 4/12 TWO layers of 30lb should be applied. Faced with the prospect of tearing it all off and re-doing it I get all hot and bothered, read the wrapper, call Bradco, call GAF, sure enough he's right. Now, the point becomes Mute because the roof was a 4/12 dead on so we are ok, but here's the rub. I call GAF tech support,I tell the girl that we left five layers of 15lb on the roof and felted over it. She said GAF would be comfortable with that, it may be a problem codewise but not for GAF. Then I ask why do you want two layers of paper, she says added protection. I say if you have seven layes down and wind driven rain gets in then it will still find the nail hole and leak no matter how many layers she says yeah but not if the shingles are sealed properly.....well then I says if the roof is sealed then the paper becomes redundant with regard to protection. She laughs and agrees and that's that. GAF states that if you shingle a 4/12 or under, then you need two layers of 15 or 30 or synthetic but cannot come up with a valid reason......no?>>>

We did several construction defects last summer for residential associations....The old GC and Roof contractor were sued. We came in to t/off and install shingles. Point is....This was a big eye opener for our company in that we followed the manufactures reccomendations and requirements. Additionally, we had the GC and the engineer breathing down our necks the entire time...If there was another defect law suit, we all would be on the hook. Even though we may not agree with some of the overkill, or odd requirements, it was important to the company to change the way we install the various products we use.>>>

I remember when I had employees and subs. When a new sub came in I literally had to take their tools from them and tell them if they did not stop doing it there way Get off and hit the road. I thought it would take someone to break their arms to make them change. It so hard to change something we have been doing things a certain way for a long time .The change has to come it just how long it will take to figure that out. Or how painfull it gonna get before we learn>>>

Don't worry fellas! Change has come! It's why we have water absorbent shingles and only the paper-thin felt to keep the water out. :laugh:

How much more change do we need? Paper towels to protect the felt instead of shingles?

Face it gentlemen. Inferior products are changing the way we do business. We, the roofers, will be required to handle the manufacturer's non-existant warrantees. It'll get worse too. :(>>>

tinner I like the post . " THE SPECTOR OF DOOM " is raising it's shrouded head. Naw I'm not going to try and have some fun this time in " THE OCTAGON ' just fun'un HOP what ya talking about you ole pirate high jack away mate>>>

......Yeah....that's great....BUT WHY TWO LAYERS OF 30lb??>>>

Well the long and short of it is ...........Manufacturer's warranty , Southern building code Insurance company want to mitigate damages before a storm with as much protection as possible. It is a good idea um mm should I go on? I know it upset you when caught in a situation after the fact. With out pain and failure we would learn nothing. There really is a right and wrong . It is not situational ethics .>>>

"Change has come! It's why we have water absorbent shingles and only the paper-thin felt to keep the water out."

Jed, like it or not, the day of the shingle protecting the house is almost over. I've pulled off many a roof that had asphalt shingles over planks or plywood. There was NEVER any damage.

Lately, I've pulled off perfectly nice looking, undamaged, intact shingles 4-9 years old. The felt and decks were wet and leaking. NOT from condensation either.>>>

It's why I dutch-lapped my entire roof. 50 year Elks, with anything from 1/2" to 4" lap.>>>

I'm back to finish. I called Elk, Timberline, and GAF before I did my roof. They ALL said the Dutch-lap was the way to go, AND unoffically, they all said they wished everybody would do it.

It creates 7" headlap and though lapped shingles always looked funny to me, I've never in my career seen a failure due to lapping.

My roof has sold many other lapped roofs becasue of it's unique look. It looks dimensional! :cheer:>>>

"She said GAF would be comfortable with that, it may be a problem codewise but not for GAF. Then I ask why do you want two layers of paper, she says added protection. I say if you have seven layes down and wind driven rain gets in then it will still find the nail hole and leak no matter how many layers she says yeah but not if the shingles are sealed properly.....well then I says if the roof is sealed then the paper becomes redundant with regard to protection. She laughs and agrees and that's that."

I asked about DeckArmor under metal or slate. Their response was " If it tears, it might leak". WTf???? I'm telling you, for the record. All of them are concentrating on underlay, not roof products. I used to think it was solely because of installer issues. It used to be. Not anymore, but installer issues show up faster.>>>

Frank what do you mean by "Dutch Lap".....never heard that term.>>>

Ducth lap is a type of shingle it comes in different shapes but mostly square and diamond shape I forget the exact demensions.

The first time I saw it I could not believe it could hold water but it does. Not recommended for lower pitch roofs though.>>>

Whoa. frank the scribes of old would be skinned alive if the were to use the " KINGS " name cepting for extreme reverence. Forgive frank Majesty the King Webmaster Steve grovel I'm not worthy . frank is a good guy he must of lost his bearings . What is a Dutch lap with dimensional I'm with Jedd on this one .>>>

It think Frank laps the side lap of the shingles instead of butting together. I'm just guessing. Or it could be code for roofing naked :woohoo:>>>

Copper man got it. http://rcs.si-sv2628.com/photo_album_list.asp?u=30

Go to 'Albert's Roofing, about the 6th one down for a glimpse.

I only went over 'single' layers of the dimensional shingles. Totally random which way the laps faced.

Learned fast that the ends of a shingle had to stay un-nailed until the it was decided which way the adjoining shingle was going to be laid.>>>