They are hiring roofers

"Those were two forces of nature clashing."

I'm with you there. :)

Those were some great days at the coffee shop.

Lefty: "Chuck you are doing what I have posted. 1 man or 2 guys partnering up can make a good living. I built a reputation that took me above the going rate, but could still do the going rate and make good money. Subing and building a repair business is the way to go. Eventually if you want you just do repairs. This is all doable."

Did you mean subbing from other roofing companies or selling roofs and sub-contracting them out?

Chuck, I meant doing work for other contractors. I always did the work I sold.

While I defended Vicky's right to do what she wanted with her site, I said it then, and still feel, Richard Kaller's banning was a travesty.

I don't know who this mystery guy is... I'm kinda dense like that... but I sure miss my ol' friend Tom Hay. When it comes to impromptu originality, I don't know that it could be anyone else. ???

Mike, I miss Tom's exspecially when he was living under the bridge. Richard Kallar was probably the only person who could compete with you for length posts.LOL

Chuck Said: And when that guy whos sub-contracting for $45 sq. tears off around the chimney and discovers that it needs new flashing but the sales person didnt note that on the paperwork and/or the insurance company refused to pay for it combined with the fact they will not pay him anything extra to do it. ( Its included in the per sq. price the ad says ) almost every single time he will chooseto not reflash it and the chimney will be a problem down the road for the homeowner. Not to mention the fact he has to complete the job in one day and it will take half the day to flash the chimney for free.

You nailed it Wuck. He CHOSE his way. "He" is at least three different people that put more value on money than on quality. The salesman chose to ignore his ineptitude, and cried if the installer wanted to do more, because it would come out of his pocket. The installer put more value on his time than he did on the work of his hands. The owner encouraged it by putting more value on the thickness of his wallet than the fullness of his reputation.

I've had salesmen like that. He is gone. Because my field people knew that it was more important to me to spend more money than to make more profit. Drove him nuts. Caused a lot of turmoil between field and sales.

It starts at the top and filters to the bottom, but in the end... Any one of the three could have said "Stop. Do it right". Nobody did. Each one had to be happy with the man in the mirror. I don't know how they do it.

Finding peace in a reflection built on anything less than integrity would be much harder for me than working for free.

Thank you, Dad.

(edit) Funny Lefty. I've gotten lots better, eh?

Mike, I learned a lot from those posts. I think you just got tired of repeating yourself with all the technical data and the way to install the different systems. I was not that fast at typing yet. So I was impressed.

Hike M, In the very first line of my reply on page 3, I said " and I agree with the personal choice part ". So, I don't understand how you arrived at the decision that I totally disagreed with what you said.

What I didn't "fully" agree with is that this "choice" should be left up to an underpaid sub-contractor. The last guy down the line who's working on the roof. Your last reply above makes much more sense when you mentioned the salesperson and the owner.

The owner could order all chimney's be reflashed regardless of condition. That may be extreme to some people. If he doesn't do that, he could order the salesman to inspect these type areas while measuring the roof and make the decision right there if it's obviously in a bad condition or won't last the length of the roof that is being installed.

What kind of roofing company leaves this type of quality control up to some sub-contractor? In the case of the chimney flashing, the "choice" could have already been made most of the time, if not every time instead of leaving it up to the last man who is in the worst position to be making this type of decision. This is what I meant.

"Hike M".... I laughed.

Then we agree. Well said.

Here's a screwy way of perceiving this -

Wouldn't it make more sense for the advertiser to be working as a salesperson for the,("sub")contractor they're soliciting for?

After all, as a paying client, I would put more trust/credence in the contractor who is actually orchestrating the installation of my roof - bearing the burden(s), of providing the business management skills, employees, WC/GL insurances, equipment, tools, vehicles, etc...

All the shyster/paper contractor did was sell me on the idea. I suppose he may finance the materials also. Not a whole bunch though.....

Anybody carrying comp and liabilitie at those price hasn't got chit for insurance!

Mike H: "Hike M".... I laughed. Then we agree. Well said.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

TomB: Wouldn't it make more sense for the advertiser to be working as a salesperson for the,("sub")contractor they're soliciting for?

That's the whole reason most subs are subs. They don't know how to market, sell or run a business. Fear held me back for many years. Fear of failure I guess. So I just kept on subbing. But I paid close attention to what the companies I worked for were doing and after saving up what I considered to be enough money to give it a try, I finally did. Even though I paid close attention there was still a LOT to learn. Ironically, the thing that gave me the most trouble initially was repair work which is what I specialize in today. :huh:

Chuck, I was being facetious, I suppose.....Let's get some clarity here...

"Subs are subs", (in the context we are addressing), because of two reasons;

1) Unscrupulous/opportunistic employers choose to cheat/steal - circumvent paying appropriate labor burdens, by representing employees as independent contractors.

OR

2) Naivety - on the part of the parties simply because "that's just how we do it here".

"That's the whole reason subs are subs" - In this context, that is.

Mike H Said: While I defended Vickys right to do what she wanted with her site, I said it then, and still feel, Richard Kallers banning was a travesty.

OMGosh really! His posts, although helpful and interesting to you guys, were half blantant promotion to join his company. If that wasn't bad enough I had to pay CoffeeShop Frank to read them. His essay's cost me money!

I assume you all are thinking that he did so much good that I should have looked past the commercials. Perhaps some of you think me greedy. But, I was just trying to be fair to the people that pay for advertising.

Although you may all have been able to put aside his constant self promotion, to get the useful information. It wasn't fair I was charging our RCS friends KoldKing, G-Tape and KleenKutter for advertising while Mr. Kaller (RIP) refused to pay for advertising AND refused to quit promoting his company in his posts. That was my only gripe.

If someone comes on the forum to promote their company you guys gang up on him unless you see they are an advertiser. (Which I appreciate). But Mr. Kaller was different because he offered something you wanted?

I haven't been perfect in my handling of this website but if the same situation arises I would do it again. No matter how I explain this I sound greedy but it was never about money. It was about being fair.

If you guys thought he was so helpful why didn't you join his organization? Because it was too expensive? Well someone paid for all that free advice and it was me. I had to buy CoffeeShop Frank new glasses and a coffee pot.

And after all that I still love you all so much! Just wanted to re-butt!

The whole shebang was supported at its center of gravity by his primary footing, which put succinctly in his own words was, "We all need to do the right thing." That is what he used as justification for going back to a client and billing an extra 30% or whatever in the event there was a mistake made during the bid process. That whacked out some people here, but let's just take it on faith for the moment anyway. Doing the right thing on this site would have meant paying something to the site for what was clearly self-promotion. If he'd had any deep respect for doing the right thing it all would have worked out differently and very easily in the bargain. Some people are what you could call "treat-me-special" types. Get enough meat-eaters telling you that you're special and you start to believe it. Yes, he was savvy, interesting, engaging, potent, and he got the boot when all he had to do to stay was do the right thing. He freely chose not to. C'est la vie. For my part, I wouldn't have joined his organization for all the tea in China. Not my kind of thing. And without meaning any offense to him, Bob Tronson was not my kind of guy either. I like a more rugged, hands-on experience of life than that structure offers. A little bit of suffering and confusion is good for your soul. Way too much policy worked out, all the way down to a litany of how to handle complaints on the phone. My great grandfathers were born in log cabins. They did for themselves. Easy times are great. I've had a lot of them myself. Hardly remember anything about them though. Just a pleasant blur. To each his own. You did the right thing. When someone says, "You don't know what you don't know," it's what's known as a tautology. Like, "It is what it is." We always think when we say something like that, it applies to other people, not us. As if we're getting a jump start on truth. But it's fatuous. Safety is an illusion. Doing the right thing is not something you can guarantee in advance. You don't even know beforehand what form it will take. Sometimes you need to lose money. That's my two cents.