Snap lines ??

No problems with any of that, as long as the shingles are straight! If it takes every shingle having a line, so-be-it! Every 4 or 6 courses works fine IMO, expecially when you are going around dormers or working up from the bottom of a valley with a short bottom and a longer ridge. It is easy to get started an 1/8 of an inch out and have it compound to 2 inches or more at the top. The headlap is important!

If you do slate, this is even more critical. Many slate roofs are junk because there is not enough headlap and they will leak. If the lines are crooked, the headlap will vary. I just believe that "good enough" is not good enough. Just where do you draw the "line"? IF you pay attention to the small details, the rest will take care of it self. That's how I roll anyway!

I can't believe nobody mentioned G-Tape here, where has the love gone?

I have alot of work to do here!!

ps. I'd chalk lines......if I had a roof to do.......that I would make money on.

seen-it-all Said: Regarding chalk lines, I tend to lean towards eggs school of thought. We always put the paper on straight and used the lines on it as a general guide to get us home. Out on the West Coast you have so many installation days of fine mist or heavy dew like conditions that your chalk lines would be running down the paper.

Chalking every course is akin to paint by numbers Dont go outside the lines class mentality. I prefer to ditch the every course therory and let my artistic juices flow a bit. :cheer:

Ditto

We haven't heard from BOSS for a long time now. I wonder how he is doing. G tape is for someone that can't use a tape measure, but then again, there are a lot of them out there.

---I have been roofing since 1969. During that time I have worked for some 10 different companies off and on and own my own company since 1990. I have worked with dozens of roofers of all shapes and sizes, union, non, old, new, etc. I have never chalked a line on a shingle roof nor have I ever seen it done in 40+ years of roofing. I had never even heard of such a thing until here on this board! ---I have installed hundreds, even thousands of comp roofs starting with an AJC hammer and now guns with gauges. The thought of installing shingles crooked has never been an issue as gauges have always produced excellent results. ---I have never run a 6 inch pattern as is common on the east coast. Used to run a 5 inch pattern before metric shingles moved us to 5 5/8. ---We do use a line to "find our key" when going around a dormer, etc. But that is to keep our pattern straight not our courses. ---I am sure those that chalk find that to be the only way. The "right" way is always the way you were taught. Lanny

Lanny, I've done studies and research about chalking lines, it is very regional. you are probably in a place that doesn't do it. I've talked with roofers or groups of roofers or companies that the whole city have never heard of NOT chalking lines. Where I'm at, they aren't chalked much either.

Not saying right or wrong, preferrably I'd like them all to chalk lines and use G-Tape, but it does go faster and straighter!!

OS-You do know who GSD is ?(BOSS) Sean,I was thinking of you when I posted this,Wasn`t sure if you were still involved with G-tape or not,Personally I think I can mark all my lines by rote with the tape measure,but always worry about the guys screwing up their measurements,The help doesn`t always care as much as the owner,Think the G-tape is definitely a good idea for keeping the quality control,particularly when you are training new guys,or using multiple roofers on a roof section--One of the older roofers here used to snap a start line,run the shingles up to the ridge,then measure the layout,then mark the measurements he got from the layout on the other side of the roof to snap the rest of the roof-That guy would`ve done cartwheels for G-tape

Thanks Eric,hope you and everyone else here also has a healthy and prosperous new year :)

Wow, This is probably the 3rd or 4th time that this topic has been chewed on! But it never gets old. :) I use them when needed. Rarely. But it's even rarer that I will pound down shingles any more either. I used them to stay even when coming over a dormer, one line only, and in valleys and for hip shingles. When I started shingling I probably should have used them more often and I remember driving away from some jobs that I didn't want to look back at. :laugh: Nowadays I encourage my guys to use them to start for a horizontal for 3-tabs but never vertically. Hips and valleys, but anything else is overkill if you are a good shingler.

Glad to see you back Sean. Is the wife still putting up with you?! :lol:

I think shes starting to like me. shes getting even with me though, with the whole menopausal thingy.

I hear ya, :woohoo: and you thought PMS was bad. B)

SEAN! GSD? BOSS! No I didn't, but it makes sense now that you mention it. Sean, it is hard to keep up with you if you keep changing your name. I am still "Old School"

This type of thread never gets old to me. I am amazed that people insist that lines aren't needed. I guess it all goes back to the principle of "good enough" Personally, I don't think that "god enough" is good enough. The closer we can get to "perfect" the better the whole job will be. I believe that "Perfect" is "good enough" That means that if the shingles are suposed to be laid at a 5" exposure, they are laid at 5", not anything else. That means that if the house is slightly out of square, the error is taken out of each of the courses, so that everything is exactly proportional. That means that if you are laying 3-1's and lining up the coutouts, they aer exactly perfectly lined up, all the time, and everytime you go over the top of a dormer or valley, you always catch your layout! That means that when you lay laminated shingles, since you don't have to worry about cutouts, all of the courses are exactly paralell with each other and the bottom and the ridge. It has NEVER happened and it never will, but we should be able to get "close". G tape, and a tape measure and chalkline are Quality control tools. They are "gauges" and "jigs" to keep things close to the "perfection" we all strive for.

Can you imagine a carpenter that bragged about building a house without a chalkline or a tape measure? Would you want to buy roof trusses from a manufacturer that got all of them withing a couple inches of what they were supposed to be? How about plywood that was only 1/2" too big or too small? I see it in dimentional lumber now and it drives me crazy. A 2 x 10 can vary as much as 1/4 inch in the "10" width now-a-days. Very difficult if you are trying to put down a subfloor and you actually want it to be flat.

The question should not be "do you strike lines", but "what is good enough?"

Don't get me wrong i like straight shingles as well but good enough depends on what you are talking about -- Like a roof is a roof it serves 2 purposes - 1. to keep the elements out - 2. to look good from the ground or out a window or adds charecter to a realy expensive house.

So would you go out and buy $1000.00 rims and tires for that rusted out 1979 pinto -- to make the tires perfect or close to it? or go to the junk yard and pick up some 50 dollar cheapies with good tread?

So on an average house it may be overkill to spend all the time triing to make perfect if house has been out of square for the last 50 years - some minor truss sagging -- some uneven cracked roof boards -- knot holes etc all which can be fixed a number of different ways -- what wrong with straightining shingles a course or 2 before the ridge vs spending an hour or so measuring -- sister a couple trusses in and running a brace from opposite rafters -- vs tearing up the decking and having new ones ordered or hand framing -- throw a couple pieces of metal over the knot holes - vs replacing 100's of extra ft of wood work -- saving the homeowner a few bucks in the process and let them know there may still be a dip or a sag here or there but your roof will still do its job and function like a roof should.

Now if all you have is clients or customers that own half million to million dollar homes or more and they want everything perfect -- One can justify chargeing extra to do the job perfect i have had several homeowners like that but it does not mean one roof will out perform the other when we are only talking aesthetics. So good enough greatly depends on what you are working on.

Snap lines on every roof? No -- on some roofs yes -- overlooking window -- 50 ft or more in lenght-- Or the engineer who measures everything to the 10 thousands of an inch etc..

Try this if you have some friends of your wife or someone that has not had their roof done or looked at in say 5-10 years ask them what color they think it is -- I think you would be surprised at how many people actually do not even look up except us roofers. I dont know how many times i broke out the sample book and asked what color do you like and they say jeez what color do i have now?

You are right on all accounts, but the question is still, "What is good enough" It doesn't take me an hour to strike lines. If a person can't measure, use the G-tape. In my experience, measuring and knowing exactly where you are on a roof at all times is like having sharp tools. In the long and short run, it is faster, plus it is just right!

Where are our "minimum standards?" Where is our quality control? Should the shingles be installed according to the instructions? How many of us have actually read the instructions on the package? EVER? Do you think they put them there for a reason? IF the shingles are supposed to laid at a 5 inch exposure, does 5 1/2 really matter? Why not 6 inches? If you ordered a glass of beer, would you really care if they only filled it to within 4 inches of the top? What is "good enough?"

Old School, Well i cant rightfully answer What is good enough? -- But i will tell You -- if you were tell me it is good enough i would bet my bottom dollar it would be better than just good enough. I have read lots of your posts and seen lots of pictures and i know exactly where your coming from.

I have worked along side of perfectionists as well as hacks and i would much rather work besides a guy like you then the other.

I actually have a guy on my crew now that screws around snappin 10" lines everywhere :) -- Funny thing is i end up not following them exactly anyhow i find my style overides the lines half the time -- Some people run the slot exact some a finger nail above or below the exposure line - i dont even gauge them with the gun anymore - Heck last roof we finished i finished the last 2 sq in the dark and they were straight enough - by that i mean not a roofer in the world would be able to tell they were layed in the dark or say man thats f'n crooked --